The Empowering Humility Podcast

Andrew Bibb: All right, welcome to the Humility podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Bibb, and we are going to have a great show today. We have with us the president of the John Jay Institute, Ross Huffam, to talk about virtue policy and how that intersects with AI and modern tech as we navigate all this new technology. Really excited to jump into that. So we'll be really quick up front talking about first, the purpose of this podcast is to explore how we strengthen virtue in our society by elevating the role of virtue in every area of society. And we're not the only ones doing this. What makes us a little bit different is we take a special focus, special look at technology. I think it's pretty undeniable that many of the big social media platforms and a lot of the technology coming out is actively anti virtue. It rewards hubris and being disingenuine. And e-humility is all about finding ways to restore that linkage between technology and virtue. And obviously it's in the name humility, which is the gateway to all of of those good things. That brings us to the app. We have an app called the Empowering Humility app. You can get it on Android and iPhone. And at its core, it's a journaling app. built into that, we have capability to join groups so you can reflect together. There are weekly check-ins, daily check-ins to help you track your progress as you're growing in virtue and humility. it's really a holistic digital gym for virtue. We invite you to check that out. I'll talk a little bit more about one of the group I run, Project P.
A. TOS. Anyone is welcome to join and really encourage each other as we grow in virtue and humility. That's it for the upfront stuff. Let's jump into the main part of this with Ross Huffam, president of the John Jay Institute. I met Ross, I think it was probably two years ago now, maybe even a half, two years. We were both in DC at the time. I've since moved on to simpler and smaller things down in North Carolina. And Ross has gone on to become the president of the John Jay Institute. So can you kind of tell us a little bit about you, about that journey to where you are now?
Ross Hougham: Yeah, absolutely. And Andrew, just wanted to start by thanking you for having me on your podcast. This is an incredible thing you have going here, highlighting some issues that I don't think are highlighted nearly enough in our society. We are all, if we're to make sense of this current time, something I often highlight is that we have all become little gods. We have all kind of been fostered and encouraged to create an existence in the universe around ourselves. The focus is on us as individuals. We've sort of been programmed in this way. And humility is just left by the wayside in the pursuit of that. it was, I love the Olympics. I look forward to them every time. It's one of my favorite times of every couple of years and having a kid this time around that can actually enjoy these things kind of added another level of enjoyment. Being able to walk through that and show him the different events and show this competition to him. But something that really stood out to me more so than in the past is in so many of interviews afterward, a lot of the athletes like doubled down on this idea that this time I did it for myself. I did it for myself. I forgot about other people's expectations and I did it because this is what I want to do. And they did incredible things and I'm not knocking at all whatever motivation gets someone up at that, you know, those early hours in the morning to go do things and accomplish things that nobody else can. But there is this sort of this changing approach to accomplishment, excellence, leadership, all of these things where humility seems to be more and more of some collateral damage. So anyway, that's a rabbit trail, but I think that what you're doing here on this podcast and in your work is incredible. So thank you for spotlighting it.
Andrew Bibb: Well, it's a legitimate rabbit trail. And just to kind of add onto that point a little bit, Do you ever kind of find yourself waiting in anticipation for that little interview after an amazing performance or after a meddling ceremony just to see what kind of character the person has? I think. Because it's exactly what you said. The degree to which I'm excited about it is kind of connected to whether the person says, I did it for myself or, I want to thank my parents for sacrificing so much to get me to this place. I mean, a gold medal is a gold medal. It's still pretty cool. But it does make a difference on kind of the impact that has when you see that character of the person and the gratitude that they show for it. There's not a single person up there who got there by themselves. And those who recognize that, can really appreciate it. But yeah, back to you. I just wanted to kind of double down on your point.
Ross Hougham: Yeah, no, it's, I think it's evident in every part of our society. And again, not to detract from anyone's accomplishments, but God made us incredibly able to do incredible things. And how we respond to the ability to do that, I think is very telling. But yeah, you offered up the opportunity to give a little bit of background on myself to then introduce the John Jay Institute and head into this conversation. I appreciate that because it's hard to get a pulse check on an individual without knowing where they actually came from, what the motivation is. And so I grew up, I'm here in Pennsylvania, I grew up in California. Love the state of. It is a jump. It was a big jump. It was also a very long drive across the country. But I loved growing up in California. I love the state. I love the people, the scenery, the culture. And they've got a lot of challenges over there right now. And I won't be moving back anytime soon. But I loved growing up there and ended up going to a couple of universities in this state that really reflected a lot of the challenges that both our culture are going through at this point and young people are going through. And there were, you know, looking back there, there's so many things I wish I did differently and stood up for my beliefs more than I did at the time. But God was really working on me during that period in life. And it was through that experience that really a burden started developing in me for everyone else who is then coming behind, everyone else who is either, you know, leaving a very conventional worldly background as a child or leaving a home setting where good virtues, good beliefs, good values had been instilled in them. And now we're being tested to a whole new level off at college. And this is sort of a rite of passage for a large contingent of our country. And it's the the hurdles and the pitfalls and the traps along the way have become even more abundant, I believe. having come out of that myself, I developed this great burden for people who are trying to navigate that and trying to come through. so fast forward, I left graduate school and headed off to the John Jay Institute. back in 2017 as a fellow. And so quick background, the John Jay Institute is a residential fellowship here north of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where a small group of Christians from across Christian traditions live together in an intentional Christian community, studying great texts across church history, political theology, American constitutional governance, understanding Christian foundations of culture, society, and politics. The goal is to build Christian leaders for public service and to do so not by reading through a textbook, not by checking certain boxes, but by immersive living, being formed by something, creating patterns of living. that they then can take into their careers after leaving the fellowship. And this was a really profound experience for me because I went into that environment with a really pretty decent sense of who I was as a Christian, as a believer, and a pretty good sense of what I wanted to do with my career and my vocation. And I... I didn't quite realize going in to what extent these are two sides of the same coin or perhaps two sides isn't even the way it's all the same. Our pursuits vocationally are directly intertwined with informed by guided by the purpose that we see for all of it. What we see as our higher calling. And so I went through that experience immersed in that environment and came out really motivated to fulfill that higher calling and start serving these more timeless ideals that I'd been kind of shorn up, that had been shorn up during my time in the fellowship. So I headed to Washington DC, did the usual John Jay Fellow graduate thing, went to DC, worked a few different jobs in working on a couple different areas of policy, ended up at a think tank. working on talent development and finding my way back into working with college students and working with recent college grads. And it was, I didn't force my way in that direction. It was kind of interesting how it all worked out. I was a policy guy that found myself back working with young people and kept connecting the work that I was doing with the experience that I've gone through. And letting that inform now my ability to to prepare these young people through internships and other programs that I was directing in DC. And so anyway fast forward again some time went by I met my wife we started our family there and then last July we all took the trek up to Langhorn, Pennsylvania here north of Philadelphia. It's a much shorter drive than cross-country with with from California but also a little different with a child. Yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, we're here now. working through my second class of fellows here in the spring semester and just absolutely loving it.
Andrew Bibb: You know, when you talk about sort of the immersive environment versus just reading a textbook you mentioned that John Jay had a Witherspoon fellowship, right? Yeah, so John Witherspoon, was the president of College of New Jersey, which is now Princeton. He was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, incredibly influential and just great educator and clergyman and statesman. But I was doing research for a book I was writing on him, and I found this letter that he had, it's kind of a letter to be posted in a newspaper, was an advertisement. He sent from Princeton to the inhabitants of Jamaica. This was before the war for independence. And he was giving all of the British colonists there the reasons why they should send their kids to Princeton rather than back home to mainland Britain. His central argument was that Princeton was the immersive experience. In the people that they're around in the rhythms of life that they have, because everyone was required to live on the university. The big selling point was we're just not developing your kids, your young adults intellectually. We're immersing them in an environment where they will be strengthened in their ability to live virtuously. And by the way, that is really the only way we get to fully realizing our God-given potential is through that cultivation of virtue. And the only way we really get that is in a community and environment that facilitates that cultivation. and I just say that because I think it's really neat that today, you know, that was a major university back then that was doing that. Today, you really don't see this sort of thing that you're doing anywhere. which is why it's so encouraging that it is happening at the John Jay Institute.
Ross Hougham: Yeah, well, I mean, one of the things that we talk about right from the start, I think it's maybe the end of the first week or the beginning of the second week, is we start talking about cultural liturgies. depending on what background someone comes from, the term liturgy could mean a variety of different things. And I think it's generally associated with you prayers of certain things that you say over and over again. And those are important liturgies. But something becomes liturgical because of how you approach it. Consistency. The way in which something through repetition or through some constant experience comes to order you and pattern you and creates a pattern in your life. And One of the things that we talk about is how the world around us is trying to drive us in whatever direction it whoever it is, whatever it is, whatever institution, whatever they're trying to drive us in the direction of actions they desire us to take through the use of certain liturgies. And we read a book by James K.
A. Smith that gets into this great, a professor up in Calvin College or Calvin University, think it is now. And he talks about liturgies of consumption. Like we, when we go into a mall, a mall is patterned to reflect many of the things that used to be present in a cathedral. You walk in and there's those, you every mall, it's those glass ceilings all the way down. The same way that cathedrals would raise your eyes up and try to, guide you to consider the transcendent. You walk past windows with images in them, images that create a worshipful environment in you, worshipful spirit, and that you seek to emulate, similar to saints or whoever else may be images in a church. There's music that's going, that's been. you know, research to ensure that it leads you to a certain worshipful state after which you then take your hard-earned money and you buy something that then will make you feel more satisfied and more valuable as a person. Like these are all ways in which the spiritual side of us are harnessed to create a consumer. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that necessarily. we're to a point, but like we are, there are all these influences, all these draws upon us to take us in a certain direction. And we don't necessarily know they're happening all the time, but they do. And so our environment around us, our lived experience, the things that are around us, the people we interact with, the images up on our walls, the things that we listen to, all of these things. form us and shape us and create our loves and our passions. And sometimes it's important. You know, there's many things we can do in our own personal lives, wherever we find ourselves to create liturgies, create patterns that form us before we get formed by someone more sinister or something more sinister. But one of the great things about the John Jay Institute is that you know, fellows join us mostly after going through college and coming out of that environment where the world, the administration, whoever it is, is very much trying to form them and craft them after their own image. And it's great for them to come into this environment and to push all that out and be, you know, be in a place where the right virtues are formed, the right passions are formed and where they're drawn toward. goodness that before then being catapulted into their careers.
Andrew Bibb: So I'm interested to hear about that dichotomy, the experience of being in a kind of completely... for lack of a better word, just libertarian sort of environment at college where you just do whatever you want when you want. So long as you meet certain gates and milestones to come into a place where there's greater expectations. There is definitely more structure there. Everything is purposely oriented to what's going to cultivate and nourish the soul. So some people from the outside might hear that and be like, I don't want those limitations and restrictions and not appreciating the fact that we actually are able to access the things that are most meaningful to us as human beings in those kind of environments. So I'm interested to hear about kind of the reaction of students as they go from that first phase into your organization and just what that transition is like and what they get out of it.
Ross Hougham: Yeah, that's a great question. I remember it was a really eye-opening thing to me when I stopped thinking of freedom so much as the ability to do whatever I wanted to do. Freedom from... anything that got in my way freedom from people telling me what to do freedom from you know inhibitions things like that and instead started seeing freedom as this this positive freedom freedom to be we are crafted to be something new. There is an intent in our existence. Every part of us, whether it's our mind, our heart, our physical selves, like it doesn't exist just to exist or for us to do whatever we want to do with it. Whatever it is, it exists with some end in mind, some way that if we use it in this certain way, the greatest intent of that part of who we are, can be maximized, can flourish to its greatest extent. And freedom is not so much freedom from all these other things. It's something that allows us to become who we are intended to be, who we are best placed to be. And so that's a... you know, there's a tension between those two understandings of freedom that I think a lot of college students, or at least a lot of people just in that age and that stage in life really wrestle with. And some wrestle with it better than others. And there is also, there's also just, you know, there's a lot of good that comes from the wrestling and the lessons that are learned from that. And so at the John Jay Institute, We expect a certain baseline of what our fellows believe coming in, a certain commonality. so generally there has to be some... some extent to which they've already wrestled with these things and they've already come to terms before entering into the community at the John Jay Institute. But they're all coming from a wide variety of backgrounds and that's one of the joys of being here is that then they all learn from each other and this gets to your original premise of this whole conversation about humility. Regardless of what background they come from, whether they were just a super social person that maybe you know were challenged with how that socialization worked out in a college environment and they always felt like there's this you know they always wrestled with what they wanted to do versus what they knew they ought to whether it's that sort of person or whether they're you know they loved their books and they were holed up in the library and like these things weren't necessarily temptations Everyone has different temptations. Everyone has different paths that they bring into their stage in life. early conversations we have at John Jay is, what are you all doing to recognize and value the backgrounds and the differences among everyone else? And, you know, we keep coming back to to going into this next lecture or this next discussion. There are some of you who, like for example, you're probably familiar with there's a lot, there are a lot of, and you maybe got some of this at Liberty, where there are a lot of schools where. they'll start with Aristotle, they'll move into Aquinas. like some of these early thinkers are the entire framework, the entire foundation. And they could start quoting the ethics if they wanted to. And then for everyone else, it's like life kind of began at the enlightenment and they might have great philosophical minds, but they're not as aware of those things. and going into a seminar discussion on Aristotle, we're like... Look, you guys have a great background. Speak up. Make sure you're making your voice known. For others, just because this wasn't the cornerstone of your education doesn't mean that you have anything less to contribute. You can be the glue between what we're discussing here and our current challenges in society. And Aristotle lovers, don't think you're any better than the other guys. And just because you other guys think you know Locke and Nietzsche better than those other guys, don't hold that over them. And if you were a communications major and had no understanding of any of these things before or at least minimal that doesn't make you less of any less of a person You all learn from each other and if you're an introvert or an extrovert if you've just had a You know gold-paved life up to this point or if you really had to grapple with your beliefs And God was working through you in in those grapplings you all can learn from each other. And there's a real requirement that when entering into a community like that, you have to embrace humility. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to learn from that sort of environment.
Andrew Bibb: Absolutely, and I think one of the cool things that that does, having those different perspectives, is it helps really bring to light that we're wrestling with perennial truths. Aristotle and Plato were wrestling with the same stuff that Locke and Nietzsche and modern philosophers are wrestling with. It's maybe coming to very different conclusions, even within contemporary periods. But it's the same questions that we're asking and wrestling with because they're at the core of what it means to be human. And that's what's really cool about having sort of that span that you have in your programs. You start to realize that humanity, there's more that unites us than separates us because we're all moral beings and we're all wrestling with those core moral questions.
Ross Hougham: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Bibb: how you framed virtue and humility and living a certain way with becoming everything you were created to be with your tea loss, because that is what really clinched it for me in terms of wanting to cultivate this in my own life. And you and I are both young fathers now of toddlers. Setting up that environment, similar to what you're doing with the graduate students there, that environment that that shows, that cultivates that freedom for, freedom for goodness, freedom for courage, freedom for creativity, freedom for everything that we were created to be. And I think that is the right way to approach it, especially today, because the utilitarian argument that for virtue that it creates a healthy society. we all, you I think that is a great, it's a great argument. It's very true. A healthy society needs virtue. But I think especially today, what resonates more with probably people our age and younger, especially Gen Z is virtue is how you become your true self. It is how you unlock your purpose, your God given purpose. So I really appreciate kind of that approach and perspective.
Ross Hougham: Yeah, well, you know, every part of us is pointing in a direction whether we know it or not. And the extent to which you can... You can not just enjoy your life. And that's not just a that that's not measured by happiness necessarily. Although happiness is a good that's given to us. It's not measured by pleasure at certain points. Although pleasure is a nice thing that's given to us and it's a good thing. But our ability to understand what that direction is and jump on board early is what allows us to live the fullest life and to contribute to human flourishing, which I know is something you speak about. a lot on the podcast. And we want to connect young people. And I work with young people, but older people can grapple with this as well. And I think it's a lifetime. experience. You don't just find your direction. You don't just hear a voice, although maybe there might be a voice, hear a voice. This is who you are and what you ought to be. This is what every decision should be in your life. But this is something that through the practice of virtue, we come to understand about ourselves and understand about our intention. And there is a joy that comes from that and a satisfaction.
Andrew Bibb: And I really appreciate that perspective. I think one of the things that, you know, you and I are both believers who've come up in the church and, you know, come up in kind of circles that are more conducive to virtue cultivation than not. But I think one of the mistakes that we make is trying to define that, and too specifically that we remove the need to grapple with it. I think... The more we can orient ourselves around the same thing that you guys are doing there, where we are in community and rather than one person upfront who ostensibly has all the answers and everyone else just kind of on receive mode, and I'm kind of using imagery to try to illustrate a metaphor, but getting in a circle and... and learning from each other how to wrestle with discovering what is the good and right way to live. What is the role of my conscience? How do I cultivate it? How does that manifest in my relationships and into the mundane moments of day-to-day life? And that's the more I've... I've realized that and the more I've kind of craved that sort of community, the more I realize how hard it is to find.
Ross Hougham: It is, yeah, it's, you know, I've been challenged with this, especially having gotten a glimpse of something like the John Jay Institute when I was a fellow back in the day. Moving on from that, I've been challenged at every step in life in trying to develop those intentional communities and intentional relationships. And that's gonna look different in any setting. But I think there's, you know, one thing that... I've definitely stumbled into is that I fall into this trap that in order to develop a community like this, have to be around, I have to find the people who think exactly the way I do and that are wanting the exact same thing. And there is a certain extent that like, you know, if you're wanting to explore the good the best books and explore the big ideas and have at least some crossover in interests, in applications. You're gonna end up with a lot of overlap in people and people with some serious commonalities. But yeah, having diversity in a group like that is so important. And... whether you're someone with loads of grad degrees or you're someone who is not, whether you're someone who grew up thinking as a philosopher or you're someone who more is just wanting to be wise. All of those people are important to have in a group. to explore these things. And then you don't start off the conversations with the direct answer in mind. Even if you know like proverbially, even if you can all agree on what the light is that's illuminating the issues, it's gonna take wrestling, it's gonna take discussing things, working through them, realizing the point at which actually I've only thought right up to this point, maybe I'll let someone else take the wheel at this point and listen to them and that informs you and draws something else out that you didn't know was connected to the thing that you'd been saying before. And being able to, I mean, the scriptures talk about iron sharpening iron, being able to be in communities where... Perhaps there's other iron to sharpen you, but maybe there's some bronze and some copper and some brass in there and you all sharpen each other. And the goal isn't diversity for diversity's sake in that case. It's not, well, all ideas are equal, therefore let's just have different ideas. It's... Again, you have to all identify that there's a light that's illuminating these things. There's something that we're drawn toward. It has to be a shared interest in finding out what that thing is and a shared acknowledgement that you might come to terms with it more and more as time goes on. But this is a lifelong venture. And if you could have a 20-year-old in the same group in the same discussion as a 40-year-old or an 80-year-old, they're all going to be learning from each other.
Andrew Bibb: And it just made me think if I'm creeping up on 40, if I met the 20 year old me, I'd be like, wow, I hate this guy. He thinks he knows everything. Not real. yeah, every once in I think about just how kind of I was like, I really did think I. And then the more I learned, the more I realized like, I had no clue. I had no clue. And that as we learn how little we know, we reach that commonality that you have. You're like, oh, I actually have something to learn from someone else. I might shut up and let them take a wheel for a while. But when you were talking about sort of different interests and like some people not being. all that intramural or political philosophy. mean, family's always like a great metaphor for this sort of thing. I was listening to an audio book of Sister Rose on moral duties and Becca walked in and my wife and she just kind of gave me a look and I was, you know, she could not have been less interested in it. But we talk about virtue cultivation all the time. It just, it doesn't have, anything to do with sister though. So I think we shouldn't be too quick to... Those great voices, they're, for my intellectual life, they're critical for helping me discover what the good life is and cultivate your conscience and reasoning through it. Not everyone takes that approach. A lot of people are just like using... life and reality itself as a feedback loop to help them navigate these big questions, which is an absolutely legitimate way to go about it with some guidance.
Ross Hougham: Yeah, well, if we're driven by the vagaries of any given moment, the things that are most challenging to us as individuals at any given time, and if that's the only lens through which we can see things, we are just gonna be up a creek at every turn. And, you know, I'm... I'm lots of things and no certain specialty at the same time. But if I could consider myself anything, I would think of myself like more as a historian. I kind of think in historical terms. And it's a profound thing that we are the same people as Cicero, as Aristotle, as Moses. sure, maybe there's some environmental things that have shaped various aspects of us and things like that. We have the same nature, the same challenges. When Moses saw something and had to contemplate action, it was largely in the same manner that we would now, or that Cicero did, or that George Washington did. And when you come to realize that and you can zoom a little bit out of your own personal situation and see history is full of billions of people who have grappled with this and who have gotten through it and you can learn from them. you're not creating the world anew. And this is another frustration with our current time, our little God existences, is that we're told like if you want to achieve something, anything, the greatest thing you can do is to create the world anew. you know, leave the past behind and create something untethered, new, more glorious. And I believe in creating new things and glorious things. but things that build on what we've been given, things that are grateful for those who came before. And if we can zoom out from our, not just our own life experience, but our generation, zoom out of our century and recognize the value of all those who came before, man, it just taps us into a wealth of knowledge and wisdom that we're gonna spend our whole lives just scraping the surface of.
Andrew Bibb: Right. when you talk about creating the world anew, I thought about C.
S. Lewis, the abolition of man and then how he kind of he put it in story form in that hideous strength. But this sort of scientism where we were going to completely re-engineer human nature and spoiler alert at the end of the book, it ends up just being a bodiless head possessed by a demon. But this idea that... And that is a complete hubris, right? That's what's at the core of it. We are going to do better than the Creator. We are going to do better than God. Which is a completely different thing than saying, I'm going to make the most of what God has given me. Those are two very different ideas. The thing that separates them is that the one is humble enough to say, okay, there is an immutable law of nature and nature's God that if I align myself to, I realize my full potential and if I neglect, then I destroy myself. And then on the other hand, there's this thought that we can just completely disregard that immutable moral law or that it doesn't exist, that it's a societal fabrication. And that really is the dividing line through human nature, think, no matter what period of history we're talking
Ross Hougham: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I'll just add to rewind to your statement about that hideous strength. One of the most... terrifying maybe is too big of a word but but concerning eerie parts of that book are the number of people who are part of the system and just don't know it because they've been accultured to it and they they just they don't know what's happened to them and and I think it's really easy to fall into that trap at any phase in history. It's not just sci-fi, it's real life. And we need to be careful. I think one of the profound book that really gets at this, think, is Hannah Arendt's banality of evil, where she monitors the trials of Adolf Eichmann. because his nickname was the architect of the final solution during the Holocaust. And the book just gets at Eichmann's defense. trying to constantly talk about how, well, yes, there was this very intentional thing. There was this very intentional thing. There were these evil actions that took place. But really all of this was just, it was a system. There were just little operational decisions and nobody really knew what anyone else was doing. then eventually you just have the largest mass murder in human history. And obviously the pro- Filming is into the defense of Eichmann. It's a profound reminder that even though Eichmann himself very clearly was complicit in this, that there were so many people who were involved who were just flipping little switches, pulling little levers along the way and had no idea the evil that they had stepped into. And, you know, it's really easy to look at the extremes and see things like that. But it's very important for us to see that perhaps there are systems that we're involved with. environments that we found ourselves in, a culture that we have become a part of, even if we mock it, even if we say how terrible it is, that we have stepped foot into, we've dipped our toes into that water and we've become complicit in something. And I definitely went down a rabbit trail there. you know, this takes vigilance.
Andrew Bibb: No, no, it's entirely relevant. And it's really it's kind of Plato's cave all over again, right? So many of us are just watching the shadows on the wall. And but rather than just sitting there chained up, we are either knowingly or unknowingly taking part in the evil. So what what John Jay Institute does and somebody like you is is realize the fact that, hey, We actually do have guides out of this pit, like real flesh and blood guides that are gonna lead us to where that sun actually shines. And so we take the hand of these thinkers and we just let them lead us there as we wrestle and think through and really engage both our minds and our consciences in these big questions and in sort of the proposed answers that people have given throughout history.
Ross Hougham: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Bibb: And that's what we need to do now as, I hate saying more than ever because it's usually never more than ever, but at least as much as ever is exactly what we need to be doing.
Ross Hougham: Yeah, and I'll just add to that because a lot of our exchange has rightly focused on exchange on ideas, sharing ideas, discussing ideas, debating ideas, learning from other people's ideas. And that's all really important. And we should have more of a focus on that. especially in the environment we now live in that kind of sheds intellectualism like it's a relic of the past. But I want to add to that that these intellectual pursuits have to take place kind of back to our liturgies and liturgies conversation in an environment and in a life that that values the other people in that sort of intellectual community and that acknowledges that that even if someone else is outside of that community that they are still valuable that they're worth serving. At the John Jay Institute, even as we, you all the fellows are reading about 150 pages every afternoon. They're coming together every morning for three hours of discussion of what they read the previous day. Like there's a heavy intellectual engagement going on here, but they begin the day together around a table in prayer. They end the day together around the table in prayer. They cook all their dinners together in the evenings. They live in community. They regularly host. Someone's someone's asked me before, actually a couple people. If you find a graduate of and this isn't all about John Jay, but I think there's a lesson to learn here that if you were to come across a John Jay grad in the wild in their career, what exactly would it be that's? that distinguishes them? And my answer is a love of hospitality. Because we believe that even as we're engaging these intellectual ideas, one of the greatest things that we should expect of any Christian leader, and therefore expect of our fellows, is to be hospitable. to show love and to serve the people around them through the use of their space, their resources. So the fellows all cook dinner for themselves, for each other every night in a family dinner. Every Thursday, they host a guest, often a VIP guest, and they learn the protocol that goes into making sure that that guest, receives all the respect and all of the service that they deserve. Not because of their resume or because of their position, but regardless of who's coming in the door, they're valued and they know when they leave that the fellows value them. And every Wednesday afternoon, they host community teas. It kind of sounds like from a Jane Austen novel and it sort of is. But, you know, it's a high T setting. One of the fellows gives a cultural presentation. Two of the fellows act as hosts and they get up and whoever's visiting from the community, and there could be quite a few, they will name them by name and share where they're coming from. because, and all the guys are wearing bow ties. They have to learn to tie their bow ties in order to, to, to enter into that event. and everyone's acting in this elevated way. But if someone walks in the door and shorts in a t-shirt as they regularly do, they're no less worthy of serving. and of acknowledging in this public and formal manner of receiving protocol than a professor walking over from Karen University in their suit and tie. Because this is how you value people. And this is a... You know, we build this into the pattern, into the liturgy of life at the John Jay Institute. And so when someone leaves, yeah, they know more than they did when they went in. Yeah, they can hopefully think better about things. But they're also a better servant. And because they're a better servant, they're going to be a better leader.
Andrew Bibb: Hmm. So one of the things that we've been talking about at eHumility is, right now it's an app, it's digital app, it's, we don't, it's evident to us that there's, the term online community is an oxymoron. So the best thing that could come out of this is like, is facilitation of in-person relationship building and events. And that's, You kind of put your finger on something that I know that is one of my weaker points that I need to, that requires some development is I'm so quick to go straight to the ideas because I'm interested in them. But it's, I think back to my college experience, I couldn't tell you a quote by one of the great thinkers or, you know, I could. Maybe I will name a couple of the books I read, the textbooks or a few of the lectures. But what I will never forget to the day I die is several professors, one of which had a huge impact on my life. The example that she set, Dr. Gayford Don of Liberty, let give her a plug, the most incredible teacher I've ever had, not only through her, what she taught, but just the way she lived. or still lives, she's still there. And then the students I was around, their influence is gonna go, it's already lasted way longer than any of the specific thinkers that are dealing with. There was that community and relational aspect. And then John Jay goes a step further and shows, this is what it looks like to be a servant in a community, not just part of a community, but a servant in it. And that's where it comes from focusing on cultivating virtue to being Christ-like. When you get down to start washing the feet. I think that's pretty incredible.
Ross Hougham: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, you know, every day when the fellows come to the table, they wear black robes. And I remember hearing one person be somewhat critical of it and refer to it as snooty, that there was a perception that it was a snooty practice of the John Jay Institute. And I'm sympathetic to the critique. But in wearing robes, the fellows actually are entering, are humbly entering into fellowship with everyone who's gone before them. They, in stepping into that room and donning the robe, they don't know who all wore that robe before them, but they, but they then are subverting their own personal ambitions, their own, know, flashy resume items, whatever it might be, and they're submitting themselves to the text and to the community. And also, when the robes come off, if someone knocks on the door and they're in need, if an alum drops on by and the fellows are at dinner, they're going to host that person at the table. When we have imagery, whether it's the robe or something else that acknowledges that we are set apart, the world tells us that being set apart is snooty and snobbish that being set apart means that you think more highly of yourself than others and we try to build in this belief that actually being set apart yes should should allow you to set a standard perhaps higher than others but also being set apart back to this whole freedom idea it's not being set apart from something it's being set apart to something and as as Christians we would say we're being set apart Christ's service. But also, you know, for whatever religious background someone might have, you can be set apart for the service of other people. And the leadership class, if we could call it that, has not stepped up to that plate the way it ought.
Andrew Bibb: and you kind of talked about a little bit throughout. So the John Jay Institute is deliberately liturgically postured to facilitate that sort of thing. Most of our communities and lives are not. So we stay away from trying to solve like all of society's problems here because we're not gonna do it. We're gonna talk to, you what are we gonna do about our own lives and those of those who are interested in listening to this podcast. The role of technology in reshaping that environment that you were talking about and how we interact with one another. Sometimes it's great. Like right now we're doing this through video teleconference. At the same time, I would much rather be in person with you. Our wives, our friends, they get along, our kids can play together, you and can talk about big ideas under the wee hours of the night and I would absolutely love it. There's just something different about when you get technology out of the way, even though we need it for so many different things. So I would just kind of ask you, and you can go down whatever trail you want with this, and I know we're coming up to the end of our time, but before we leave, How do you either personally or at John Jay, how do you approach the use and employment of technology, especially in this age of AI LLMs starting to write themselves into existence? We're in a brave new world. So how are you kind of going about navigating?
Ross Hougham: Thanks So I think that, you know, it's important to distinguish the benefits of technology with the fact that even wherever there's great benefits, there's also great risks and challenges. we are, hopefully you and I, Andrew, are benefiting whoever listens to this. There's no guarantee, but I like to believe that. And so, you know, by doing this and using this technology, we can open up that community. But also, like, barring the possibility that I'll run into some of our listeners at some point and we'll become friends. And maybe that's a possibility. someone listening to me isn't going to make them my friend or me their friend, right? They will enjoy, hopefully, our conversation. And I will say that that even as you and I have this conversation, know, this comes, using this technology, we're opening up to other people, but this would not be the way that as you're touching on that you and I become better friends. If we are to be better friends, we need to shut our laptops, get the family in the car and go drive. And so, you know, there's often the sense that by acknowledging that there are traps in certain technology, we're somehow anti-technology or we're Luddites or things like that. And don't get me wrong, I might lean Luddite at times. And just because we can accomplish things and we can create things doesn't always mean that we should. But among the majority of cases in which, okay, a technology exists, it's not bad or evil on its face and it opens doors to do some really important things and to benefit humans in certain ways. We have to ensure that something like that that's supplemental to the human experience does not subvert or replace the human experience. This is something that we've already seen. It's very in vogue to talk about AI as this like brand new thing with all brand new considerations. And I'm very wary of that approach, not only because I think it's not true, but it keeps us from learning the lessons that we've been wrestling with for the past decades. I think we can, in fact, I've actually got the book right here. Highly recommend this book, Neil Postman's book, Technopoly. We read it in the John Jay Fellowship. And I actually introduced that book to the curriculum because I felt we weren't, we didn't have enough in there about technology. And I just felt we had to, we had to force it into conversation more than we were. And I was like, but technology is constantly changing. There's always something new. And how do you find one book? I can't just have a whole new module on technology. How do I find one book that covers this? This book was written in 1992. And the things that he discusses there have proved prescient through the burgeoning internet. It has stayed relevant through the dot com boom and bust. It stayed relevant through the rise of social media. It stayed relevant because these are things that are timeless to the human condition. And And we see the lessons and the warnings, in fact, that he puts in there being playing out all around. so as we now look at AI, I think it's important to recognize that we don't have to start from square one. There's a constant challenge in human development where human capacity always seems to precede our ability to know what to do with it. And there's some truth to that, but also I think part of that is because we're not willing to realize that actually we have been dealing with it long before we had a name for this technology. And let's just carry it in. So, okay, we've got artificial intelligence here. What are the lessons we've been learning from social media? that now can inform our use of that? What are our lessons that we can learn from the nuclear bomb and this geopolitically and existentially changing piece of technology that now we've sat on and has formed our understanding of the world and of ourselves for the past 80 years? so that's not getting into specifics. but like, I, I just think that, you know, there, there's, there's so many, there's so many lessons we can learn from the past. so many ways in which social media challenged us. One of those is, we need to make sure that even as, even as machines are capable of doing more things for us, we can't lose the muscle memory. of ourselves as humans and our ability to do that. And I think that's important for us as adults, but it's even more important in our education of our children. There's so many ways in which AI can replace creativity, where it can, you know, that spark of originality that people had to, you I often said that the hardest part of... One of the most challenging things you can do is look at a blank sheet of paper and try to figure out the first word to put on it. This is why our grammar teachers and English teachers growing up, even if it's the worst thing, get a first draft on paper. Then you can play with it. And the need to do that in order to accomplish something is being removed from the next generation. That can be really damaging, but also... Let's make sure that that doesn't leave the education of our youth. Let's make sure that they are, that even as some machine is doing more and more processing and more and more telling us of what we should do, that in fact we're teaching our kids what they as humans are specially equipped to process. And what they as humans are able to judge and discern. Machines don't have virtues, but our children sure should. And so we need to ensure that as we're grappling with these new things, that we're employing timeless strategies to ensure that our children can use them in the way that they ought and can be kind of the stem in the tide of the rest of the world that's either terrified of the new things or who are saying, well, new things are good because they're new. So let's just throw caution to the wind and go full steam ahead.
Andrew Bibb: Yeah, right. just making that... So I love the human-centric way that you approach it. And one of the things that I hope comes out of this is a realization of how valuable in-person community is. Because the more, I mean, we're getting to the point where people... might not know the difference between if this video recording is to real people or to AI representations of people. The little workspace already has the thing where you can plug in, like you could plug in some of my writings and some of your writings and it can do this podcast for us. But there's, first of all, you and I wouldn't get out of it, whatever we've gotten out of it. whatever technology gets to, it will only be able to imitate and mimic. It will never be the genuine article because that comes from a soul spiritual level, which we're just never gonna be able to craft for anything that is non-human. So, and I think you put your finger on why... Engaging with these perennial truths throughout history is so important because we realize, like you said, there's nothing new under the sun. There's new manifestations of it. But if we learn the fundamentals of what it lives to flourish as a human being within the framework that the creator has given us, we will find the answers to the questions we will be able to navigate. One of the ways we talked about it on here before is the the moral law that we inhabit is sort of the map. That's the terrain features and our conscience is the compass. And no matter what else ever changes, that will never change. AI can do math for us, but it will never be able to take the place of our consciences.
Ross Hougham: Hmm. Yeah, no, that's important. And whatever AI is able to accomplish, we need to be prepared to make a values assessment of whatever it does. And if we offload all of that to a machine to figure out for us, then I'm not too concerned about. about little robots running around shooting at us accidentally because suddenly they take over. Maybe I should be concerned about that. That's not, I'm more concerned about humans flipping off our own switches and leaving the values assessment, leaving the appropriateness of action up to machines to decide. And forgetting forgetting that part inside of us that cultivates a conscience because we can have a machine do that for us. And that's, know, I often become a broken record over here with my fellows because I often point out that nothing around us, nothing is morally neutral. No decision. is ever morally neutral. there's a spectrum, there's a continuum, but there is moral relevance to every decision that we make. And whether it's explicit as, Who do I worship and why? Who do I marry and why? And how do I then behave toward the person that I marry? Things like that. Or whether it's I am going to consume this snack. Is this snack good for me? Is this valuing my body as the temple of God? is where did the snack come from? Was it produced in a way that values the human labor that went into it and the land or the animal that it came from? You know, there are moral considerations in all of these things and sometimes they hit us in the face and other times we don't, but we're making them all through the day. And those are... that decision-making ability and the use of your conscience as the guide, as the compass, I love that picture, cultivation, requires the constant use of that muscle over and over and over again. And AI won't be a huge challenge if our consciences are up to the task and they're able to hold it in check or to not just hold it in check, but to use it in a way that's good. But if we, in these early stages, if we offload our ability and our muscle of the conscience starts to atrophy, then we're seeding over more than we know and more than we readily admit. And so that's I become concerned.
Andrew Bibb: And John Jay's Institute is at the forefront of keeping that muscle nice and strong. I think that's a great point to kind of put a pin on this entire conversation. Nothing is morally neutral. Keep your conscience muscular. To be able to navigate all of that. Do you have any any any kind of final thoughts on anything that we talked about or I really appreciate that we've gotten overtime because I've been enjoying this conversation so much but anything you want to say kind of to wrap up?
Ross Hougham: Yeah, the best conversations always go over time. So thank you, Andrew, for having this. We spend three hours a day discussing narrow topics at John Jay. And every day we get to the end of the three hours, which sounds like a lot of time. And we think, Where did the time go? We need more time. Sometimes we'll go in with two books that we have to discuss and we leave only having discussed one and like a page of the second. It's like, ah, so easy to fall behind because there's just so much. And so I've enjoyed this conversation. But I just, know, to tie it back to the topic of humility, you know, one of the things that I... One of my favorite people is Edmund Burke. And one of my favorite things that he talks about is the relationship between us now, those who came before us, and those who come after us. That we are not just contractually obliged, but almost spiritually connected in a way to building on what came before and building for what comes after. And that picture, it's about more than us. We are stewards. We are here to till the fields, to plant some seeds, and then to let the rest just happen, and to trust God, and to be faithful in... what it is that we've been called to do. And the canon of human history, both from the history of experiences, as well as the literature that's been left behind, is such an incredible wealth of resources. And if we just humble ourselves and recognize we don't know everything, there's so much we have to learn. and we just start digging into those things. I think there's not only so much that we can learn from it, but it's so gratifying and so satisfying and provides so much worth to life. So I guess that's my last comment. I love it. The takeaway is nothing's morally neutral because I believe that wholeheartedly. And when you start thinking about it that way, everything else starts looking a little bit different.
Andrew Bibb: Hahaha Yeah. But I will just say, perhaps as a final word, if any of what I just shared about the John Jay Institute strikes you in a certain way, if you know someone recently graduated from college or who's about to graduate, or if you are that person, we're actively recruiting for our fall semester right now. So feel free to apply there. And then also, I mentioned our community T. awesome. every Wednesday. You don't need to tell us you're coming. If anyone's in town north of Philadelphia in Langhorn, Pennsylvania and you want to drop on by, have some tea and whatever else we've got, biscuits, cookies, crumpets, and get to meet some neat people and have good conversation, we meet every Wednesday at 3 30 for tea. So we would love to see you there, even if you're in your shorts and t-shirts. That makes me feel better. Ross, there was like five things you said in there that makes me want to throw, reopen the entire conversation. I will resist the temptation. But thank you so much for being on the show. It's been extremely, you know how some conversations you come away from feeling intellectually and spiritually nourished. Like it was a hearty feast. That's what this conversation is. and it has been for me. So I appreciate it. I hope our listeners feel the same way. Take a look at what they have to offer. You've gotten a good taste of it here. I know they've been on the site. They've got a contact. If you wanna learn more about the program. But yeah, if you or someone you know is kind of in this window of life, I can't think of a better way to spend. some time and something that is obviously you're an example it impacts and resonates throughout the whole rest of your life this experience as a John Jay fellow. We'll put the URL in the show notes. JohnJFellows.com. Thanks, Ross. Closing with the book you mentioned, Neil Postman, Technopoly. OK, I'm getting that after this. Right after I go to JohnJFellows.com to learn more about the program. Thank you so much again, Ross, and thank you for all of our listeners. We will see you again next month.