The Empowering Humility Podcast

Dolores: Welcome to Empowering Humility,
where we're on a mission to promote human

flourishing by restoring humility as
a common denominator in society today.

Let's dive in.

Giancarlo Newsome: Well, good afternoon
or morning, wherever you're at.

Welcome to the Empowering
Humility Podcast.

I'm John Carla Newsom, and I'll
be your host for this podcast.

And just to orient our new, uh, viewers,
this podcast explores how technology,

especially AI and Web3, can be used
to strengthen virtue rather than vice.

We believe the first virtue we
need to help restore to society is

humility and empowering humility.

We believe humility is the root virtue
for human flourishing and everything good.

What do you think?

Tell us if you think we're wrong.

Um, anyhow, before I introduce today's
guest, uh, I want our new listeners to

know that our guests have a clear passion
and purpose greater than themselves.

That's kind of maybe the first
qualification for them to join us on the

show, and they've demonstrated a life.

I, I think, I love the word flow state
in kind of living in this selflessness,

wanting to pay forward goodness.

And they embody what we
feel is empowering humility.

So I think today's story with, uh, uh, Mr.

Tom ish, uh, will reflect that
I think you'll be, uh, inspired.

And I, um, uh, you know, I
think, uh, let, just a high level

introduction is, uh, today we have Mr.

Tom ish who's gonna discuss with
us the benefits of living a life

in continuous awe and wonder.

And we're gonna, we're
gonna get a little bit edgy.

We're gonna talk about.

Um, could a lack of awe and wonder,
have we hollowed that out in the church?

Is that part of the reason why the
church has declined so greatly?

How can humility help?

And also with us today, we have Dr.

Brian Hedrick.

He's a dear friend.

He is an executive
coach, an army chaplain.

And, um, because Tom and
I, I don't believe, Tom,

you're not ordained, are you?

Tom Ish: No, no, I'm

Giancarlo Newsome: No.

Okay.

So to keep us lay people straight, we have
an ordained pastor, as we maybe share some

frustrations with the church and we're
gonna keep it real and keep it authentic.

Does that sound good, Tom and Brian?

Tom Ish: Perfect.

Bryan Hedrick: Sounds great.

Giancarlo Newsome: So, so the description
of, of today's title was what happens when

the church begins to mirror the world's
obsession with self and to our audience?

Have you guys seen this?

Are you guys tracking with this?

Um.

In this episodes, we're gonna
ask some hard questions.

If the decline of the church is associated
with a societal decline of humility,

and why does rediscovering all in one
or might be the catalyst for the mental

and spiritual health revolution we need?

So one of the things we like to do before
we get started is I, I love receiving bios

of our guests because obviously they take
time to write them out and kind of think

through kind of the core value proposition
of, of what they do and why they do it.

So I'm gonna read to you, uh, a bio on, on
Tom and Creation Illustrated the magazine.

He's been, he's published for over
32 years with him and his wife.

Um, there's a fun, I think there's a fun
backstory that we might get into there.

Um, it's a quarterly nature publication
that aims to provide character

building lessons found in creation
through parables and object lessons.

And that represents also
Christ's method of teaching.

He used parables in object lessons.

Um, so readers call Creation Illustrated
their magazine, the Christian

Answer to National Geographic,
and they, I, I agree with it.

Every issue is like a keepsake.

Um, I personally am a, a
subscriber and it is true.

It, you know, as I see something where
he covers a special bird or another

outlet in nature, it's amazing how much
then, kinda like when you buy a car and,

or you're looking at a car, you notice
how you see that same car everywhere.

Creation Illustrated kind of
does the same thing for me.

He will, he will expose
something beautiful in nature.

That'll just totally make
me take my awe and wonder.

On another object to another level.

And then all of a sudden I can't,
the next week and the next month,

I'll keep seeing that object and,
um, and grow my awe and wonder.

And I can't encourage our readers and
thank Tom enough how much, when we're,

when we stay in a state of awe and wonder
how it puts in perspective some of the

child day-to-day challenges we have.

So I find it one of the most encouraging
subscriptions I have, and it's a,

it's the flagship of their ministry.

They also have a Creation Week seminar.

They have Creation Illustrated books,
DVDs, and it sounds like they're launching

a Healthy Digital Habits program, which
I welcome you to share with us, Tom.

And, uh, and, and they are found in
schools, churches, prisons, hospitals

with homeschoolers, gift subscriptions,
and donor funded subscriptions.

We're gonna, which we're
gonna talk about, and, um.

And their primary goal is they want
to encourage everyone to become

a new creation in Christ Jesus.

Uh, through surrender to him and his
will, uh, a selfless act of humility.

We are, um, this is, uh, I'm a Christian,
Tom's a Christian, but we wanna

welcome anyone who is not of faith.

Hopefully, you'll still will
feel encouraged and valued, and

we respect these differences.

That's the whole essence of
empowering humility, that even amongst

Christians, we need more humility.

And, um, that's, you know, e
humility and empowering humility.

We really want to appeal to
people with, without faith

as much as people with faith.

So for some reason you found that
we were offensive in any way or not.

Uh, we want to hear
about it, so let us know.

Um, okay, uh, on that note.

Um, welcome Tom to the
Empower Humility Podcast.

Um,

Tom Ish: Thank you, John Carla.

Giancarlo Newsome: I noticed in your
bio that you were public relations

and marketing director at Weinert
Institute of Health and Education.

Um, tell us how you ended up creating
Creation Illustrated, and you mentioned

that you met your wife and next thing
you know, you're starting a business.

Usually that's, that's pretty dangerous.

Tom Ish: Yes.

Yeah, that's a good observation.

Well, actually, and it goes back a
little before that, I, uh, got my

degree in geography from uc, Berkeley,
and, uh, then started working on,

uh, newspapers, weekly newspapers
and internships and other things.

And the reason I pursued that
degree is because I had traveled

across the United States by
bicycle and onto Europe for a year.

And, and I wanted to really share those
experiences with people who would not have

those experiences riding their bike across
the US or going to Europe for a year.

And so I really enjoyed writing and got
my degree in geography, but also studied

journalism, uh, in conjunction with that.

So, um, after, uh, writing
and editing for newspapers, I

became acquainted with, uh, uh.

A facility called Wimar Institute and
they have a college and health program.

And actually, uh, began to study with
students there and was baptized and,

and, uh, went to work there as public
relations and marketing director.

And then, uh, my wife, who was
one of the first four year college

graduates came back to work there
and we had a bunch of matchmakers

and the Lord took it from there.

And so when we got married, we
prayed and said to the Lord, if

we can serve you better together,
uh, we would like to do that.

And so we worked together at, uh, Wimar
Institute on a number of projects.

And then our daughter, Melissa
came along five years later.

And so Jennifer was home full
time and we said, now what?

Well, my background in journalism
and her background in health

education, why not a health journal?

And we thought, no, there's a
lot of competition out there.

However, everyone needs stress manage.

we found that stress management
out in God's creation and, uh,

just wanted to encourage people
to get out and, uh, enjoy that and

embrace the lessons, the character
building lessons found in creation.

Um, it's important to point out
that Creation illustrated does

not lock horns with evolution.

We're not out to disprove
evolution or, or prove creation.

Uh, revelation 14, seven says, worship
the creator of heaven and earth.

It doesn't say prove he's the
creator of heaven and earth.

So, uh, that's what we, uh, follow.

And the Lord really gave us a
design within the publication.

And, uh, there's three sections, creation
illustrated in nature in scripture.

And in living.

So those three portions, the nature
section has the animal features,

the outdoor adventures, the national
parks, those types of things.

The birding features, the in scripture
creation, illustrated in scripture

covers one day of the creation,
week at a time to really dig deep

into what God created on that day.

And then creation illustrated in living.

Uh, the first element of God's
character revealed into the

Bible is his creative power.

So, and since we're made in his
image, we need to be creative.

So we encouraged to be, create people
to be creative in the garden, in

the kitchen, uh, in crafts and, uh,
children's stories, photography, coloring.

So, uh, those three sections, creation
straight in nature and scripture

and in living provide the mental,
spiritual, and physical enrichment.

In every edition that all of us need.

And, uh, is it okay to show
this, uh, one page here?

Giancarlo Newsome: Sure.

Tom Ish: this is how the,
the, uh, uh, contents page is

organized in the three sections.

So you see how it, uh, comes together
there and people can easily find,

uh, what they're looking for.

And if it's okay to read
our mission statement, um,

Giancarlo Newsome: Absolutely.

Tom Ish: our purpose is to share the
wonders of God's creation by revealing

fresh insights of his infinite wisdom,
gentle touch, undeniable justice,

redeeming love, and flawless design.

Pure truth shall bring renewed peace.

Each part of this publication is offered
as a reprieve from the daily rigors

of life, so that all can look to the
future with unbridled gratitude and hope

Giancarlo Newsome: Unbridled
gratitude and hope.

Um, I, I love it.

I love it.

Um, the, uh, that, what a, I
think so I have a, a listener call

to action for those listening.

Um, you know, I, I think, um.

Recently we were asked to, um, put
together a pitch competition and, and

for investors, I'm like, how do we, they
want to see, okay, how are you going to

give them a return on their investment?

Right?

How, how do you monetize basically
this virtue, like with a reinforcement

of, of, you know, unbridled hope,
unbridled gratitude, unbridled humility.

And we all know, I mean, there's not
a, a human being that doesn't value

those virtues, but it's interesting
how, like, and so the challenge to our

listeners is try to pause and reflect
about how much money and time you

spend with organ organizations that are
reinforcing your vices over your virtues.

And, and I'll just throw out like the,
the obvious one is like PornHub, right?

It there.

You know, I, we're not gonna have
this discussion today about like how

bad for us porn is, but most people
know it, it's bad and it's, and it's

obvious that it's not healthy for you
spiritually, mentally, or physically.

Um, and it's obvious that
they're making money off of that.

But there's a lot less obvious vices that
people are making plenty of money off of.

And, uh, so, you know, you just heard
from Tom, what an amazing business.

They also have a nonprofit side that is
monetizing the reinforcement of virtue.

And, and I hope we can embrace that.

I think there's a lot of, um,
there's a very interesting,

it's, it's well intentioned, but
I think it's, it's one of those

well-intentioned roads paved to hell.

And Brian, you're welcome to hop in
on this, where if I had a dollar for

every Christian or, or just faithful
person who, the moment they start.

Wanting to monetize a beautiful calling
to Restrengthen Virtue or, and to make a

living off of it, they start wanting to
think, I want to give it away for free.

They start undermining that,
that, um, that, that concept.

I don't know, Brian, you you want to
just piling in on that, have you seen

this before where you see people who
kind of water down good callings because

they're afraid of, of making money

Bryan Hedrick: Absolutely.

I mean, um, one of the challenges
for many Christians is this idea of

how do we serve one another without,
uh, or what does service even mean?

Um, I've always found it
interesting reading, like the

life of Paul and others where.

They had full-time jobs.

They had, they did ministry while they
were going, while they were doing things.

And I think what the culture has done
with the term service and with the

term ministry is that anything that
is, has to do with God must be free.

And that's a misnomer, that's a, um,
challenge within our culture that

I think that we need to overcome.

Um, because we still live and
work in a world that is there

to, um, we have to make livings.

We have to be able to deal with,
uh, life as it comes our way.

Um, and God's giving gifts,
God's given incredible talents.

I mean, just looking at the pictures
behind you, Tom and seeing that

incredible wall is fascinating.

And I don't believe there's anywhere
in scripture that God is commanding

people to give away their talents.

For nothing.

The challenge, I think what scripture
talks about is how do we as brothers

and sisters in Christ use our gifts to
better the body doesn't say free, it

means how do we better the body of Christ?

How do we better our world in that way?

And what is it that we're truly coveting?

I think it's more of a
heart issue than anything.

If we are truly coveting the
money, the fame, um, et cetera,

that becomes a challenge.

Um, I was just reading in, uh, first
Thessalonians, um, I've been challenged

from a sermon I heard this week.

Um, and I know we'll dive into it a little
bit more, but I'll kind of kick it off

now and tee it off just a little bit.

But it talks about in one Thessalonians
nine, um, excuse me, four, nine, where

it talks about concerning brotherly love.

You have no need that
I should write to you.

Paul's saying, Hey, you
guys love each other, great.

But he goes on in verse 10 and he
says this, but we urge you, brethren,

that you increase more and more.

Or in other words, as you are
growing, as you are developing.

That you also aspire to lead a quiet
life, to mind your own business

and work with your own hands as God
has commanded you, and that you may

walk properly towards those that are
outside and that you may lack nothing.

And I think this directly ties to your
point, Giancarlo, Paul's not telling them,

Hey, you need to be this communal society
that gives all of that talent away.

He says, aspire to leave that quiet
life though that idea that you are

Giancarlo Newsome: That idea

Bryan Hedrick: humble, that you are
serving, that you are using your

gifts, not for your own edification,
but for the betterment of others.

Does that um, kinda make sense?

Help out.

Giancarlo Newsome: yeah.

Ab absolutely.

You know, it's, it's funny, you know,
we, we do have kind of a script that we

kind of review through and, you know,
you brought up, you know, talents, the

parable of the talents also comes to mind.

Right.

And this is, we, we will get into
one of the, the challenges we've

all talked about, um, where.

Lay people with gifts, whether you're
called to write to, to create a magazine,

um, called to create an app called to be
a pastor for, called to be a chaplain.

Like God plants these, seeds, these
talents, and just like the pearl

of the talents, what is the return
on investment we're gonna give him

for that in expanding his virtues.

And I think the ROI is is the
virtue we grow in that calling.

And to your point, like we do it quietly.

Like, and where if someone is taking
out trash baking, Brad making magazines,

they're just, just different ants in
the ant mount with a different calling.

I don't know.

Is that, am I And, and they're
all just like in creation.

Just, just absolutely beautiful.

But let's, um, let's dig into, um,
a little bit, has the church been

hijacked by society's narcissism?

Nihilism?

And, and I'm gonna.

Throw some stats out.

Um, the church Christian affiliation
leaders has fallen since 1976.

25%.

That's massive.

Um, 91% to 64% weekly church attendance
has also declined, uh, drastically

from 42% and analysis to 30%.

Church membership has fallen below 15%.

Um, what the, uh, and one of the things
I, I'll throw out, Tom, we might get

some thoughts from Brian, is, um, I,

I, I've shared with you, Tom, that you
know, the first version when we started

this, we built an app for prayer.

And, um, I, I was shocked at how
many church leaders I met say, Hey,

look, I'm building this on the side.

It's kind of a passion project.

Um, I remember this one church.

They had just done a sermon on how they
wanted to become a, a church, re known

for prayer like they used to be initial
excitement, no follow up calls, nothing.

But I got plenty of calls to
go work on Sunday to park cars.

They need help parking cars.

They need more help greeters.

But I'm like, like,
this is not for prayer.

Like, there's nothing, there's nothing
like it out there in, in the market.

And frankly, there, there still
isn't like what we've built.

Um, we're big fans of hallow
the Catholic prayer, but that's,

that's for the Catholic tradition.

What about someone who just wants
to journal someone who's not of

a faith or someone who just wants
to process their own, their own

reflections, their own introspection,
their own journaling of gratitude.

Um, and it's been really frustrating
how, how me as a lay person has been

just sidelined, but not just me.

I know a lot of other entrepreneurs in
the church who is like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

we understand you have that business.

You, you have that startup.

And, um, but, uh, that's not,
that's not, uh, we don't, we

can't endorse or support that.

And, and I'll, I'll have one more
little point of reference that I, I

miss from what I grew up with and,
and maybe showing this change in the

church is when I grew up, I remember
getting the bulletin at church.

It was a Catholic church that I grew
up in, and on the back was a bunch of

little advertisements for all the members
of the church and their businesses.

And we kept that and that
was our number one resource.

And I remember talking
recently to, to, to Brian.

I'll let you guys both
kind of tie into this.

Like, you know, we, we don't ref represent
very well a day of rest on Sunday.

First of all, who are
we really working for?

Uh, in the traditional modern,
and I'm gonna say Protestant.

I've noticed this on the Protestant,
my Protestant side inside.

And then Tom, when we
spoke recently, I was like.

D like how do you not, like if, if in my
opinion, and, and maybe I'm, shoot, shoot

me down Brian like, or, or Tom if I'm
being overzealous, but why does, why does

20%, I'm just throw a number out there,
if Creation Illustrated is the Christian

version, national Geographic, and, and
is, is, is the, there's nothing like in

the US that I'm aware of, of, of that.

Like in the market, why have I
never seen Creation Illustrated

laid out in a church when I walk in?

Like, I mean, what, and I know
there's a lot of different Parachurch

ministries, but, but the, um, and
I, I was speaking with Tom recently.

It was like, do you have like
a major institutional, like

backing church that's like buying
thousands of these every month?

And I was really surprised.

To hear, and Tom, correct me if I'm wrong,
you don't have any large churches that

buy like massive coins or am I wrong?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tom Ish: Oh no, it's, it's, uh,
it's a nonprofit ministry and,

uh, we are responsible for getting
the word out there and, uh, just

letting people know about it.

And, and fortunately there are
some hospitals that buy it in bulk

and we raise funds to send it to
prisons where people are surrounded

by cement and steel all day.

And we get letters every week.

The prisoners are asking for
more, and, uh, we have to go

and raise the funds to do that.

So, uh, it's, uh, it is
a bit of a challenge.

And, um, I will just
add another statistic.

If I cane John Carlo to the
statistics you read earlier.

Um, there's a book called Already Gone,
uh, by Ken Ham with, uh, answers in

Genesis, another Creation ministry.

And in there he says that 70% of young
people leave the church by their second

year in college, largely due to the
evolutionary teaching they're exposed

to, but also hypocrisy in the church.

So there's other forces out there
that are, are, uh, the enemy, drawing

these people away from this, uh,
spirit of awe and self-sacrifice into

a life of survival of the fittest.

And that I, I believe is, is, uh, a
major, major challenge with the church.

And just, just that concept
of, of support and, uh.

Being able to do well in a ministry and
not just scrape by, but, uh, scripture

tells us, I wish above all things that
you prosper and be in good health.

So God wants us to prosper, um, and,
and be in health and to flourish so that

people will look at, uh, turn to us and
say, you have something that I don't have.

You're flourishing and you are,
uh, doing well, but you also have

this spirit of self-sacrifice.

Tell me how that works.

You know?

So it it's the notion of inspiring others
to, uh, want that different perspective.

And yes, I, I think you're.

Uh, concern is appropriate Giancarlo,
that the survival of the fittest and

greed and, uh, just the, uh, one-upmanship
is, has creeped into the church.

And that's where young people see the
humility, uh, see the hypocrisy and,

uh, leave the church because we preach,
uh, service and self-sacrifice and love

and, uh, but then go out and, and just,
uh, push our way through to the top.

But, um, scripture tells us, uh, uh,
I wish above all things that thoma

is prosper and be in good health.

But also it says, esteem
others higher than yourself.

Esteem others higher than yourself.

That's in Philippians two.

Three through five.

So can we prosper while lifting others up
and esteeming them higher than ourselves?

And that, uh, takes a lot of humility to,
uh, not, uh, to do away with the pride.

And, uh, in fact, I tell my wife
there's three dirty five letter

words, greed, power, and pride.

And those were the three things
that, uh, were, that made Lucifer

and a third of the angels fall from
heaven, greed, power, and pride.

So we need that balance to not be
prideful or greedy, but yet prosper

and be in good health and esteem
others higher than ourselves.

It's a real dichotomy.

Giancarlo Newsome: You know, I might,
uh, Brian, I, but I know you're gonna

have some awesome nuggets to add.

I was just going to throw
in some, it's when we esteem

others higher than ourselves.

Isn't that what a pastor who's a shepherd
of a bunch of sheep, it's not about the

pastor, it's she about the strength, the
pro, the prosperity, uh, productivity

at a spiritual level of those sheep.

And it's, and that's why it's a little
frustrating to see like a ministry is

wonderful as yours, is not like just a
champion flagship that hey, um, you know,

uh, because, and I also wrote down to,
I'm not sure you can flourish without

all and wonder, you know, when you, when
you think of, and also another scripture

came to mind that I, I and Jesus talks
about his, uh, his burden's not heavy.

You know, I think when we can place
ourselves relative to nation and

creation, you go with that awe and wonder.

Like it's easy to esteem
others more than ourselves.

It's easy to steam.

Like I a former helicopter guy.

Oh, it sounds cool.

No, actually compare a
helicopter, just watch it.

The next time you watch a bird, a little
sparrow or a duff take off, vertical lift.

It's, we got nothing on that.

Nothing to be proud of, you know?

So,

Tom Ish: and they say the design
was, uh, fashion of a helicopter

was fashioned after a dragonfly.

Those dragonflies just hover and go
backwards and forwards and go from zero

to 60 in, in, you know, a half a second.

Giancarlo Newsome: yeah, yeah.

It's, uh, amazing.

Brian, uh, give us some pastory thoughts.

Are we, are we, are we being too
harsh on the church and, and, uh,

and, you know, the, the official

Bryan Hedrick: no, personally in my
opinion, you're not being harsh enough.

Um, I'm now, again, I'm a little
more outspoken in this area, but,

so my question that, like, initially
at the beginning of the Tom's,

uh, comments there came up, was.

Are we serving the church as people?

Are we serving the church
or are we serving God?

That question continues to be one
of the challenges that the church

is facing, um, when we build
ministries that are self-serving.

Whereas like you mentioned John Carlo
earlier, Hey, I'm happy to get you

to come in to park cars, to serve
coffee, to run children's ministries

and all of these things, which in an
eight and of themselves are not bad.

But if we're going to church to serve the
church, that's where we see hypocrisy.

That's where, like Thomas,
as you mentioned, we see this

generational leaving of the church.

Um, part of it is because
of the educational aspects

that Ken Ham brought out.

I agree with those, um, to a degree,
but part of it is majorly the hypocrisy

that they're seeing, um, and when
they're going into serve an institution.

Yeah, that becomes problematic because
it does, it eradicates the all and

wonder because human institutions are
flawed, human institutions have issues

with them, whereas what we see in nature
and what God has created, we restore

this sense of all and wonder because
we're serving the one who is worth

the all in wonder in the first place.

Um, and so I think the biggest question
many of our, uh, churches need to

figure out and Christians need to
figure out is, what am I serving?

Am I serving God or am I serving a church?

Um, to bring kind of into my context as an
army chaplain, I have, I'm a supervisory

chaplain right now, and I just actually
spoke to all of the, the seven or eight

chaplains that are, um, subordinate to me,
and I sat there and told 'em very clearly,

God is never calling you to sacrifice your
family or your faith for this ministry.

He's not.

Um, but the problem is that
the army, similar to the

church, is all about service.

You give everything, you pour everything
into it no matter what the cost is.

But that's not sustainable,
nor is it biblical.

I love how you mentioned, uh, Tom,
this idea of esteeming one another,

placing others above ourselves.

Does not, though it does not, um,
eradicate the need for self-care, for

self-development, for taking care of me.

Even Jesus.

I point out consistently in my
ministry, Jesus, the Son of God,

which none of us are clearly.

Um, please don't, I mean, you'll look at
my life and you'll see very clearly I am

not Christ in any way, shape, or form.

But if even him had to go to the mountain
to pray, to recover, to rest, um, was

that placing his own needs above others?

Absolutely not.

We need self-care, we need rest.

We need to be able to disconnect and to
be, um, fed, if you would, in order to

serve more effectively and efficiently.

And that's what I think some of the
church has gotten wrong by removing

all in wonder, by removing that, um,
connection to who God is and serving

that and in turn replacing with serving
the church, serving the ministry.

What small group are you doing?

What meal are you making?

All those things, which again,
are not bad ministry things.

They're just, sometimes if that becomes
the focus, then we don't have rest.

We're asking more from peoples.

And when you, I mean, I have four kids.

I know each of you have some kids as well.

When you're tired as a brand new parent,
do you think about all in wonder.

Are you looking at your newborn when it's
been crying for 30 some hours straight?

'cause mine had colic and thinking,
wow, this is an amazing gift.

I'm thinking, how can I return this?

It's terrible.

I know I'm terrible in that way.

But no, it's, it's when I get a chance
to rest and recover myself even a little

bit that I can look down and be like,
and really appreciate the all and wonder

that is that incredible gift of a child.

Um, if we're so busy that we never
get a chance to experience the all and

wonder of Christ of God, of what he's
created and the way we get to live in

it, then we are gonna go away in droves.

And that's why I'm so appreciative,
Tom, of the work that you're doing to

bring some of that all in wonder back,
um, whether it's supported by a church

or not, we could get into that piece.

That's a different, I think I
do have some, I would push back

on you a little bit Giancarlo
about that piece to a degree.

Um, but.

To be able to bring that to the forefront.

That's where we as Christians
connect with that transcendence.

So that's my perspective.

Tom Ish: Yeah, if.

I, if I could, uh, spin off on,
uh, that care for the family.

If I could tell you a brief story, uh,
I tell it in a sermon and on creation,

day seven, concerning rest, when, uh, God
created the seventh day and the Sabbath.

And, and he, the, I tell the,
the listeners that there's, I'm

gonna tell you two words that
will change your life forever.

And I by forever, I mean
from now throughout eternity.

And those two words are,
thank you, because thank you.

That gratitude is at the heart of worship.

And the story I tell them is
about a woman who, uh, had a,

uh, thriving medical practice.

She had, uh, a loving husband
and two beautiful children

that were doing well in school.

Uh, and then she had a third child.

And that child was born with cerebral
palsy, and at first she was sad, and

then the sadness turned to anger.

And being a physician,
she wanted to fix it.

It was incurable.

And not until she said
those two words, thank you.

Was she able to lie down next to
that child and love it and no.

Uh, was she suddenly glad that
her child had cerebral palsy?

Of course not.

But she was thankful to God that he was
going to see her through every challenge,

and, uh, sieze that opportunity to
love and accept and, uh, assist this

child and, uh, that he would provide.

Giancarlo Newsome: I love that Tom,
I, um, a, a dear friend who, um, he,

he helped me get through a tough time.

You know, we say, well,
how can you say thank you?

Well, I think first of all,
we're taught a lie that, first

of all, security is an illusion.

And then, and then I thought we might also
kind of dig into, okay, so where, where,

you know, how do we, um, strengthen,
encourage the good leaders, but also help

listeners identify the false leaders and
that are, um, 'cause I feel any leader.

Um, and the scripture talks about,
we don't talk about a lot in the

church, but the scriptures, Christ
talks a lot about false teachers.

And, um, I think obviously when you,
if Christ and Christianity represents

the hope of the world, and we have
the greatest level of hopelessness,

at least in, at least in the past a
hundred years, we've ever documented

truly at epidemic proportions.

We collectively, there are
obviously some false teachers.

And one of the things, um, that I
wanted to kind of pull out with you

guys and kind of share just some
personal experiences is, um, and, and

part of this is outta my own journey
of repentance, my own awakening to

how I was raised and conditioned.

But, you know, and, and
this is, um, I think.

What helps us maybe lovingly challenge
some of our friends who are maybe false

leaders or challenge ourselves, right?

I think the first person we gotta look in
the mirror for is, are we, are we false?

Is have we, as Paul talks about
in in effect, uh, cheapened grace?

I asked Chad GPTA very
interesting question.

I said, what is the predominance?

What, what's the level of all
the sermons that you can scour?

What's the balance of grace and
mercy and truth and justice?

It couldn't find any study and it
couldn't give me like a balance.

But I know at least personally with
me, my own journey, repentance that

I look and I go, you know what?

A lot of these folks who marginalized
my calling as as a lay person,

an organization like yours to.

Um, they, I've noticed they tend to
lean towards just that side, that

attribute of God, and, and not to,
you know, now that I'm a little

older, I feel confident saying that's
very, very dangerous as a leader.

In other words, as leaders, we need
to lean into the accountability of

being a pastor, a leader, a shepherd
on the truth and justice side, much

more smoother than grace and the mercy
one, especially in a modern culture

where life has never been easier.

Um, and, and a couple of examples just
to encourage and those listening to kinda

level up your own humility, your own
reverent fear and trembling is what the

Bible talks about is, you know, these,
um, I, I remember as a, as a fellow.

Um, amongst some peer Christian friends.

You know, I, I challenged, um, uh, a
person who ref, he says, Hey, we wanna

help everyone in this Bible study group.

I said, Hey, there's a young man
in Africa that would love a mentor.

And, um, I couldn't get a response back.

But when this guy mentioned that he had
a general officer friend that's building

a couple of homes, um, and someplace in
Tennessee, he gets a bunch of support.

I'm like, going guys, like, like how do
we bring accountability to, like, how

do we strengthen on wonder, which is
in an element of all on Wonder is, is.

Just fear and trembling
and reverence, right?

Like, like God is not to be mocked,
and I think even his children that are

pursuing his will not to be mocked.

Another story I'll throw out there, um,
I, I just did a, um, uh, oh, let, let

me reframe it a little different way.

Um, there's a church that promoted that
they are, again, we talk about truth and

justice, standing for trying to restore
families and, and, um, uh, a friend

of mine went to them, said, Hey, can
you help me, um, intervene in this, in

this very difficult family situation?

And this, this pastor
said, it's too complicated.

I can't, I can't intervene.

Long story short, you fast forward
10 years and this past pastor

basically built a relationship where
that family, excluding this father.

And, and there's no
accountability for that.

Um, so, you know, it's,
it's kind of a false hero.

It's, it's the wolf in she clothing.

So, um, how, how can, and and, and
I'll close with this last point.

I, if I had a dollar for every
Protestant pastor, new pastor who

said, I grew up in an environment where
I was taught that God was all about

fire and brimstone, I'd be rich for
the times I've heard that testimony.

But to go the other extreme
is, I think as dangerous.

So this is where like, this is
why I love you so much, Tom.

And, and Brian is like, we
don't wanna go back to that.

Right.

God's grace is amazing that

it's moving to talk about, right.

His grace is amazing.

But to not go to the other side.

What if we go to just all in wonder,
does that, doesn't that, shouldn't

that activate some reverent,
constructive fear and trembling?

What are your thoughts
about that, Tom or Brian?

Tom Ish: Yes.

I, I wanna throw out another statistic,
uh, John Carlo concerning that and

the, uh, church, uh, I'm glad we're all
sitting down because this is staggering.

There are 45,000 different denominations.

Now, what does that tell you about
pride of authorship or pride of

position or pride of opinion?

Uh, somebody taking a, a certain
teaching and twisting it or, or

excluding other teachings and not
getting along with people who believe,

uh, something else is important.

So another spinoff, another denomination
is created and you bring up the

point, Giancarlo which is appropriate
about narcissism and, uh, being

narcissistic and the church can be
narcissistic, that we can do no wrong.

That we're not going to admit to making
a mistake and, and being corrected and,

and, uh, being held accountable as you
just mentioned, Giancarlo And so that is

contrary to the concept of confessing.

And repentance.

And so, uh, which is at the heart of
humility that I'm wrong and I did, uh, I

need to confess and repent and turn the
other way and, uh, do things differently.

So, uh, that is a, a great concern
and a reason, going back to what we

were discussing earlier, a reason
why people are leaving the church

is they see that, uh, hypocrisy and
the pride and the narcissism, uh,

you know, not not being willing to,
uh, be accountable or, uh, take the

blame for admitting to wrongdoing.

And, uh, so the sad case you just
mentioned John Carlo, is, uh, it's tragic.

And so, you know, we preach, uh, uh.

Service and love and care for
the poor, but then go and,

and, uh, do just the opposite.

Giancarlo Newsome: No.

Awesome.

Love, love the thoughts.

You know, I think that I, I wrote
down confessing and repentance is

really an antidote to narcissism
and, and it's interesting.

I.

There is a, i I, I understand there's,
in some places the Catholic church has

actually shown a, a growth and it's, and
interesting 'cause this, this one, um,

podcast I was listening to said there's
two things that it has that the 45,000

denominations, Protestants don't have.

It's one organization that's kind
of stayed pretty true to what its

beliefs are, even if you don't
fully agree with all of 'em.

And then two, they still,
they have a very significant

component of the Catholic church.

And I'm, I, I'm, I was raised
Catholic, but I'm not very

strong in, in the theology.

But the, the concept of confession
where there's a, a young, you know, I

think JD Vance recently became Catholic.

There's another significant
politician in, in Sweden, Eva, I

can't remember last name, who also
just recently became Catholic.

And, and they both, I remember ringing up.

How valuable and almost in, I'm
gonna use the word liberating.

I'm not saying these are the, their words.

Um, the concept of confession was
humility is, so, Brian, your thoughts.

Bryan Hedrick: Wow.

There's a lot there that I could touch on.

So, um, I'm gonna, I mean, let's
start with scripture first off though.

'cause I think that there's
like two passages that.

Can really help us in understanding
this tension between grace and justice.

Um, and one of my favorite passages, one
of my first books that I ever preached

through when I was a young man before
I even became a ordained minister, um,

I was preaching at my local church,
was through the book of Jude one.

It was easy because it was short.

Um, but two, it has such richness
for, especially in our time of,

um, our age that we're living in.

I mean, this is written during a
time where they were anticipating

apostasy going down, where they
were anticipating false teaching,

where there was a rampant, um.

Challenge from how, uh, there's
this false teaching going on and

the church was not being the church.

And so it says this towards the
end as Paul, or excuse me, as the

authors, uh, wrapping up his argument.

He says this, but beloved, build
yourselves up on your most holy

faith, praying in the spirit.

Keep yourselves in love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord

Jesus Christ into eternal life.

And on some have compassion,
making a difference.

Others save with fear, pulling
them out of the fire, hating even

the garment be, um, destroyed.

Now in this passage,
there's really three things.

A lot of times we focus in on that last.

Section that says some have
compassion, that idea of mercy,

and that's what they need.

Um, I think this tension that exists
between mercy and justice, um, we often,

it's we're on the pricky and we keep
falling off into either side of the ditch.

Um, whether it be so legalistic and
judgemental, which is what justice

at its, um, extremity becomes, or
we become permissive of everything,

which is where grace at its worst
becomes when taken to an extreme.

And so we focus on this part.

But notice though, the first part
of that whole section, but you

beloved, build yourselves up on
your most holy faith, praying and

keeping yourselves in love of God.

That's the precursor
to engaging the world.

That's how we, and I love how
you mentioned it, John Carlo, it

starts with us first as people.

It starts with having a humble spirit like
you mentioned Tom, and being willing to

go before a holy God and say, I am unholy.

I need forgiveness.

I need salvation.

I need my life to be radically
changed because I am not perfect.

I am a sinful human being With a sin
nature, before we can ever go out into

the world, we have to take care of us.

I mean, one of the things that,
like I said, when I do my leadership

philosophy within those that I
work with, I share all the time.

Before you ever go to do battle,
make sure that the sin in your

own camp is cleaned first.

It doesn't mean that you
are a terrible person.

It does not mean that you have issues.

Go ahead.

Giancarlo Newsome: you know what hit,
you know what hit me, and I think you

guys will find this entertaining thought
is I really feel the ancients, even the

pagans, were more humble than we are
because even then, even though they,

maybe they're sacrificing the idols,
but if they were sacrificing to absolve

their own understanding of sins, now
granted, you know, what, what can a

golden calf or physical item do, but
the concept of sacrifice exchanging

something to pay for something, um.

Is, uh, you know, and I think in
today's culture where everyone worships

themselves, there's nothing to sacrifice.

There's no, they don't, at least
they have fear and trembling of,

of like, you know, false idols

Bryan Hedrick: I'm gonna
push on you real quick.

Giancarlo on that one though,
because when you look at, and

this is true of Christianity
too, sacrifice for what purpose.

When you look at the sacrificial system
of Baal, of, um, the old ancients,

et cetera that you're doing, that
sacrifice was for man's benefit.

It was, I go to the
temple to sacrifice this.

So I received the blessing of this.

We've done the same thing
in Christianity though too.

Um, if I give enough, if I pray enough,
if I do enough, I mean we were talking

through Matthew chapter six, um, where
it talks about the Pharisees praying

in public and, um, how they would
give in front of everybody else so

that they could receive the reward.

Um, even though they're giving
and doing sacrificially, they're

doing so with the intent of
actually, um, exploiting the poor.

They're doing so with exploiting
those that they're giving to so that

way they can receive reputation,
power, esteem, all those things.

Those five letter words that you
mentioned, Tom, uh, greed, pride,

and I can't remember the third one.

I apologize.

I know it'll come to me in a second.

Yep, exactly.

Tom Ish: Greed, greed,
greed, power and pride.

Bryan Hedrick: Pride.

There you go.

Yes, exactly.

And that's, that's what they were
trying to do through their sacrifice.

In honesty, we can do the same thing
with God when we walk before God in

that idea of sacrificial ministry.

Are we doing so to get something from God?

Or are we doing something to
live in awe and reverence of God?

And those are two different things,
living in that, all in reverence of

Tom Ish: powerful.

Bryan Hedrick: Please go ahead, Tom.

Tom Ish: Yes.

That's very, very powerful.

And, and that leads us to true worship.

True worship.

And, and, uh, just a comment
on the confession part.

Um, I'm working on a, a, a sermon
that, to try and explain the

difference between confession,
repentance, forgiveness, and pardon.

Because we can confess our wrongs and
our wrongdoing, and then we, uh, and

confession is not the same as repentance.

Confession is recognizing
there's an issue.

Repentance is turning away from it.

And so, uh, once we repent, you
know, we say, oh, oh, you're

forgiven, or I forgive you.

But, uh, we cannot, we do not
have the power to, pardon?

Forgiveness is a release from resentment.

I no longer resent that you offended
me, but I cannot pardon you.

Only God can pardon you during at the ju
time of judgment, which points to your

thoughts on justice and mercy, Brian.

And that's where it will all come together
when we see the awesome mercy of God

as he pardons us, uh, as we receive
the sacrifice, uh, the blood sacrifice.

So we gotta be careful a little
bit, uh, uh, our Catholic friends

do have that very, um, important
aspect of confession, but we need to

underscore that no human can actually.

Uh, pardon.

Or they say you're forgiven.

They can't actually pardon them
from that because they may go

out and, and do it again or, or,
you know, we've all backslidden.

Um, and so only when that judgment date
comes, will the full pardon be received.

Giancarlo Newsome: Well, and I,
I'll pay forward something that

I, I've go, go ahead, Brian.

Bryan Hedrick: No, I was just gonna
say, I agree with you, Tom, um, and

I, and to avoid like a theological
deep dive of confession and all that.

'cause we could go probably for another
several hours on that and the distinctions

between, uh, Catholicism, Protestants, and
even within the Protestant denominations.

Um, at the end of the day, I think the
biggest piece is just, again, where

is your heart in relation to God?

If you're doing confession, in order
to, in order to get something out

of it, that's even problematic.

If we're doing confession
as a act of worship because.

We are in all in
reverence of the holy one.

Then the formula, the aspect that you
mentioned about the differentiation

between the ver words absolutely matters,
but it all goes back to the heart of

the individual in the first place.

Um, and I think that's where
humility comes into the equation.

If we don't have humility first before
we walk, before that seat, uh, in

confession, whether it be through a
priest at the Catholic church or in

the Protestant faith where we're going
before God directly, the humility

and the uh, the way that our heart is
initially aligned matters more than the

vehicle in which we seek that confession.

Tom Ish: Yes, I, I would agree.

And that, uh, uh, humility and it's
humility and faith versus presumption.

Um, I'll tell you a brief story, uh, with
Creation Illustrated, you know, sometimes

we are hanging by a thread and, uh, we
like to pay our printing bill on time.

So I sent a check of for $15,000
to the press in Denver, uh, FedEx,

so it would not get lost in the
mail, and sent it on a Friday.

It would be there on Monday.

And, uh, Monday came along and I
said to my wife, Jennifer, Jennifer,

that check is in Denver right
now and we don't have the money.

And, and so I said, you better
take the, the bank deposit bag

with you to the post office today.

And.

So she did, and she called me from the
post office and said, there's an envelope

from this lady's accountant, and I hadn't
talked to him for six months, and I

hadn't talked to the lady for a year.

And I said, we'll open it.

And there was a check for
$20,000 that more than covered.

And God knew our situation
before it even happened.

He wasn't a day early or a day late.

And so, uh, we need to be careful that,
uh, our heart is full of faith in his

faithfulness and that we don't teeter
on the brink of presumption that,

oh, he'll take care of this for me.

And, uh, so that's just one example of,
of, um, really believing that God will

see us through and that we do have that.

Self-sacrificing humility to, uh,
simply say, I feel some of the eight

most important words in the Bible.

Not my will, but thy will be done.

And so, uh, those were the eight words
that Christ, uh, said at Gethsemane.

And, uh, it's just total surrender
to the way he wants it done.

Giancarlo Newsome: One of my favorite
scriptures this year, Tom, I may have

shared it with you, was when the disciples
are asking Jesus, um, aren't you hungry?

When he's hungry?

And he says, uh, my food is
doing the will of the father.

Which really, uh, and again,
I think if we don't pursue God

with his full attributes, right?

Yes.

We celebrate his amazing
grace, his amazing mercy.

It's everywhere around us, right?

But also just super, super, um,
sober awe and trembling, right?

The truth and justice side, as we do
his will, he will take care of us.

Like you don't see a bird.

Most of the birds is, you look at
nature from a seed that has the soil.

I mean, the nature is just,
it's just so in order.

Like I think for me, and maybe I'm,
I'm oversimplifying faith, but for

me it's this relationship with our
creator that he allows us to enter into.

If we pursue that with all our
hearts, soul and mind acknowledging

his grace and mercy, but also his,
his, the order of the universe.

There's truth and justice
that he does desire.

Like where does love come from?

Where does you know the joy?

Like, and if we, if we're made in
his image, it starts to make sense.

Um, I think another thing too, and we
probably need to wrap up, but I think.

There's another interesting angle that
I I, this this same pastor that just so

failed this friend of mine, um, obviously
he was all in tune to Grace and Mercy

and, and you know, fear and tremble's
not, but they're also, I feel nihilism

or what really matters creeps in.

I, I noticed he was such a big fan, um,
of like the cartoon, SpongeBob Squarepants

and I, if I, if you do an analysis of
just like the, the moral clarity of

like, let's say a cartoon, if we're
raising our culture like Transformers

or Heman or SpongeBob, square pants,
nihilism, moral, a lack of moral clarity,

I think is also at the root of, of kind.

Turns, turns us.

Really makes the world small.

And that's where, you know, when
I think Tom awe and wonder Nature

creation, when, when you, it's
so clear, it's so magnificent.

And any thoughts on nihilism and, and,
and how that would go counter nihilism is

basically where everything's meaningless.

Like how I think that would go against
your, your business and Brian too.

Like, have you seen that undermine, like
the hope and the purpose and the, and the

flourishing of, of Army soldiers you've
seen and how, how has Creation Illustrated

maybe helped counter nihilism Tom?

Tom Ish: Yes.

Uh, you bring up a a very powerful point
and, and I would say that it's, um, uh,

it's the enemy vying for our attention.

And there's a book, uh, written by a,
uh, uh, man on, on cable television,

actually, uh, Chris Hayes, the book he
wrote, uh, uh, last year called, uh,

the Sirens Call and the concept that he
addresses there is what, and the sirens

call is, is comes from Greek mythology,
you know, the, the goddess calling the,

uh, uh, Mariners out to sea and all that.

And, and so it gets their attention.

It seizes their attention, but.

There are so many things that are
vying for our attention today.

Uh, you know, just what does grab our
attention, social media, cell phones, uh,

you know, massive amounts of information,
myths of information, disinformation.

And so the enemy is flooding us
with all of this, uh, information

that is vying for our attention.

So it's no wonder that the
still small voice of God and the

Holy Spirit gets drowned out.

And so, uh, the.

Uh, there's even statistics and
studies that show that our attention

span, uh, that a goldfish has a
longer attention span than we do.

It has nine seconds.

So we have seven or eight
seconds of attention span.

So with all of these things, uh,
micro bits of information grabbing

our attention are we actually become,
uh, somewhat intoxicated and our brain

becomes numb to where we don't care.

Nothing matters anymore.

It's all the same.

It's just a big mess and mire of, of,
uh, information vying for our attention.

Giancarlo Newsome: no,
that's, that's great.

And you think about like, for
profit, if nothing matters and I can

make only what you feel is reality
matter and I can monetize that.

I mean, you just described Facebook,
you know, you think of, um.

And we've, I think we've talked
about it before, but Facebook

is like, is like PornHub for our
envy, power, pride, and greed.

Tom Ish: Yeah.

Giancarlo Newsome: You know, it,
uh, we don't see, we, there is no

transparency to those algorithms, but
Brian, I can tell you, you got a grin.

I'm, I'm sure you got a
great point to add on.

Bryan Hedrick: I don't know about
a great point, but I am gonna laugh

a little bit at what you mentioned.

Um, yeah.

Meaning and purpose is such a huge part
of our spirituality, our spiritual core.

I mean, that's when we look at
spirituality, both in the, um,

religious domain, but also in how
it's studied within, um, the science

domain of psychology, et cetera.

Meaning and purpose is one of that is
really that core element that keeps coming

back to what is different than the mind,
the body, or anything else in that way,

um, because meaning and purpose drives
that motivation, it drives what we do

and how we do it, and if we can eradicate
it, not even just having a meaning and

purpose that's in the wrong direction.

If we have no meaning and purpose,
if things are meaningless.

Then there's no need to move or act
or do anything in the first place.

And that's a dangerous place to be because
when there's things are meaningless,

now I have to find meaning in something.

We are beings that are created
to find meaning in something.

If I, if life, if the world, if
God, if whatever else we find our

meaning in becomes meaningless,
the meaning then becomes me.

And now we've transitioned from being
that idea of humility to narcissistic,

that nihilism leads to narcissism.

Because if I can't trust anything else to
provide meaning and purpose, it goes back

to Nietzsche's whole concept of I, I am
the one who exists, therefore I, I exist.

Therefore, I am.

So in that vein, to reduce that concept
of meaning and purpose, to nullify that

meaning and purpose means to elevate.

Giancarlo Newsome: We,
we just lost Poor Brian.

Oh

Tom Ish: he, he, he is making a great
point though, John Carlo, and, and that,

uh, that meaning and purpose is too
often based on survival of the fittest.

And that is a Darwinian, uh,
you know, fame and fortune.

We all have to, uh, excel and
be at the top of the heap.

Our educational system is built on
it, uh, and it creeps into the church.

You know, we've gotta be the best
and the greatest and the, uh, biggest

church and the, um, you know, the
greatest audio visual system and

the greatest website, whatever.

And so, uh, if we can recognize that
the survival of the fittest concept is

contrary to his original design, the
creator's original design, which is,

uh, that self-sacrificing agape love.

Expecting nothing in return.

And there are examples in nature
where, uh, you know, a creature

will help, uh, uh, a suffering or
wounded creature and, and just help,

help its survive or get to safety.

There's, uh, still examples of that in
nature and, uh, goes back to the concept

of Philippians two, three or through
five, esteeming others higher than

ourself, that is high, that is contrary
to the survival of the fittest because

if we boost somebody else up and help
them and help them flourish, uh, whether

that's a, uh, their business or their
personal lives, their families, their

health, um, uh, their entrepreneurial.

Efforts if we can help them, then
there's a certain purpose and

satisfaction that Brian was getting to
that, uh, surpasses all monetary gain.

And if I could just comment on
the, the social media and the,

uh, numbing of our brains through
this onslaught of information.

And, uh, supposed the facade of
being connected is to boil it down

to one word, and that is to listen.

And I want to thank our, our listeners
today that they're listening to

some concepts that they may not
have considered, but if we can.

Hone the skill of listening with family,
friends, colleagues, um, even in the

realms of politics and religion, which,
you know, oh, we don't talk about

politics and religion, but if we can
genuinely listen to the other person's

point of view and, uh, draw them out
and say, well, what do you mean by that?

Or How did you arrive at
this concept or this belief?

Um, then they are willing to listen to us.

And so you then have this relationship
where they then can say, oh,

I've never thought of it that
way, which is an act of humility.

And so, uh, teeter's on the brink
of, well, maybe I was wrong, you

know, with the way I was believing.

So, uh, that is, is key to, uh, the.

Concept of humility and
how important that is.

And so, uh, I see that Brian is back
with us now, and I was just adding

Brian that, uh, this concept of,
of purpose and meaning, uh, relates

to the survival of the fittest.

And once we, um, get into, uh, the concept
of agape, which is Christ self-sacrificing

love, then the meaning and purpose
comes as we esteem others higher than

ourselves and arrive at that awe that
you've talked about John Carlo, that

awe, which is worship and just total, um.

Uh, surrender and worship and praise
and gratitude and, uh, recognizing

that, Lord, I can't do this alone.

I am totally insufficient and
only you can see me through this.

And, um, from an
entrepreneurial perspective,

yes, we don't have a large
organization supporting us, John Carlo.

And so we just simply have to pray and
say, I can't do this on my own Lord.

And, uh, it results in
praise and worship and awe.

Giancarlo Newsome: Well, Tom, I hope
that listeners here will be inspired.

I can't encourage them to join
and be a subscriber creation

illustrated via a bulk purchase.

They make great gifts.

Um, I admire so much the, the folks
who buy bulk subscriptions to send to

their local prison or their hospital.

Um, and just to kind of bring us home,
we'll go ahead and wrap up Tom, but

you know, I, I am just going before,
um, I'm sure if you kind of led to

this thought or if it was through
Brian, but nihilism needs, leads

to narcissism, which interesting.

But I think there's many
paths to narcissism and

let's just be super vigilant.

Um, some are influenced by others.

Some is just our human nature.

Um.

I also loved, you know, you
reinforcing the concept.

When we esteem others, if we think
about it, um, I'll bring Brian back in.

We're, we're wrapping up Brian,
but I was just kind of summarizing

some great nuggets from Tom.

What is that?

If we esteem others, if you think
about it, what a wonderful way to

build relationships selflessly.

It's not about us, right?

When we lift others up and, and you
know, Tom, you brought up, there's so

many different facades of connection
that when we esteem others, the,

the connection's not about us.

Right.

We we're building it legitimately.

And then finally, I loved your, your
suggestion, you know, the con uh, to,

to put some single words to humility,
listening, and that if we can truly

listen, one of, I don't remember where
it, you know, what the context was,

but, and, and I'd love to create, make
this a better habit in my own life,

but when someone tells you something,
repeat at least twice, two times more.

Tell me more.

Tell me more.

Like, it's a way to show true
active listening, active humility.

And it's, it's amazing that the few
times I've remembered to do that.

How often I was convicted to go, oh
my goodness, I so misjudged them.

I was so fast in my listening
that I didn't truly understand

where they were coming from, and
it, it made such a difference.

So anyhow, you guys are awesome.

Encouraged me.

I hope our listeners are being encouraged
by these two great friends and great

men, um, who I know have some amazing
ladies that, uh, also backstop them.

Um, I want to thank you guys both for
sharing your experience and your stories.

I hope you guys had as much fun as I did.

Um, any final comments, uh, Tom
or Brian for our listeners today?

Tom Ish: just that, that this, uh, in
order to reach that, uh, notion of, of awe

and humility, uh, is to recognize that,
uh, the survival of the fittest concept.

Needs to be shoved to the back seat.

And those words that I mentioned earlier,
not my will, but thy will be done, uh,

puts us in a position of surrender.

And, uh, by surrendering, uh, we can
then watch God work in our lives.

And, uh, which leads to praise and, and a
testimony, there's nothing more powerful

than the testimony of a changed life.

And so, uh, when we tell people
they can't argue with it, they can't

disprove it, you know, it's just, uh,
we, there's an old, uh, children's

song, uh, that is often sung at church.

Uh, do, don't, you know, Christian,
you're a sermon in shoes.

And so, uh, you know, we can
preach, preach, preach often, and

use words only when necessary.

Giancarlo Newsome: I, I love it.

I love it.

Bryan Hedrick: my last comments, Tom,

Giancarlo Newsome: by example.

Bryan Hedrick: yeah, Tom, I couldn't even
say it better in any way, shape, or form.

Thank you so much.

That's absolutely powerful.

That's one of my, um, in my signature
blocks, I use Francis Assisi.

And at the end of the day, for our
listeners out there, check your heart.

I mean, that idea of grace, it is real.

The idea of justice, it is real.

And it starts with all in wonder
and this idea of who, how we see

ourselves with the all in wonder of
what God has done on our behalf, what

God has done in creation, et cetera.

So thank you so much Giancarlo, for
the opportunity to, um, share and

have this incredible conversation.

Um, thank you so much.

Giancarlo Newsome: Awesome

Tom Ish: you John Carlo.

This is wonderful opportunity to share.

Giancarlo Newsome: awesome.

Creation illustrated.com

right, Tom?

Tom Ish: That's right or
worship our creator.com.

It gets to the same place.

Giancarlo Newsome: Okay, excellent.

And I, I love your, your closing
comment and, and your two, Brian,

where, um, you know, none of us on
this call or listening had anything to

do with getting here on this planet.

Right?

So, to surrender to what brought
us here is gonna take us off

is, is, is a good humble act.

And, and actually it, I think oh wonders
is pretty exciting and fun when you can

kind of realize that it's not about me.

I didn't, I didn't have anything
to do with getting here or leaving.

Let's have fun.

The creator's amazing.

Get creation illustrated if you
really want to double down on, and

I loved your three areas, uh, nature
living and what's the three area that

Tom Ish: nature of scripture and living.

And, uh, it is just, uh, you know,
it's, it's wonderful to the letters

we get from people and, and they
pick it up and, and, you know, I

mentioned vying for people's attention.

We create this so that people
are compelled to pick it up.

And so, uh, a cover like that, or like
this on our current copy of that Macaw,

uh, you can't help but, uh, be drawn
into that awe and, and, uh, just the,

all that that God does in his creation.

It will make social media and, uh, all
of the other distractions, uh, melt away.

Giancarlo Newsome: well said.

Great way to wrap up.

Thanks guys.

Y'all have a great rest of your
day and we will, and we look

forward to staying in touch.

Tom Ish: We appreciate you what
you do, Giancarlo, God bless.

Giancarlo Newsome: Thank

Bryan Hedrick: God bless.